Through the Looking Glass: Projection, Community, and Belonging ~ with Kelsey and Eréndira

Erendira: 00:00:04

The laboratory is a space of intimacy and mirroring. I'm just gonna rip with it and see what wants to come out.

Kelsey: 00:00:12

Something's happening.

Erendira: 00:00:13

I was just thinking that a lab partner is someone who I can share my incomplete, uncooked, unfinished work with.

Kelsey: 00:00:27

Laboratory feels like laboratory in general is a womb space for all of we.

Erendira: 00:00:32

Are mothering and creation.

Kelsey: 00:00:34

I'm having an embodied experience vibrant in.

Erendira: 00:00:39

This container so far, relating in ways.

Kelsey: 00:00:44

That feel energetically congruent.

Erendira: 00:00:46

For me, relating to other people and relating to myself. And collaborative community is human. Help me find the lightness and like the humor.

Kelsey: 00:00:58

The creative process is fucking dope and also it's fucking like humbling.

Erendira: 00:01:05

The moment here is to fall apart.

Kelsey: 00:01:10

And be witnessed by all of us. Laboratory.

Erendira: 00:01:14

A laboratory. A laboratory is an incubator, a place to generate, to initiate, to guide, to mirror. Collaboratory stretching with capacity.

Kelsey: 00:01:30

Lab Partners is a behind the scene conversation series amongst eight folks who are in a season of experimentation with creativity, authenticity, relationship, collaboration and visibility. We are letting you in on our processes as we unpack them together.

Erendira: 00:01:45

Each of us speak the language of human design and some of us astrology as well. These frameworks for awareness have supported our embodied differentiation and relational understanding.

We invite listeners to observe us through these lenses too.

Kelsey: 00:02:00

Today's conversation is between me, Kelsey, five two emotional Manifestor, and me, Erin Deera.

Erendira: 00:02:07

Five two Emotional Manifestor.

You can learn about our astrology and designs in the show notes and find even more about us and our other collaborators@kelseyrosetort.com LovePartners.

Kelsey: 00:02:37

Here we are.

Erendira: 00:02:38

We are here.

Kelsey: 00:02:41

Should we set the stage?

Erendira: 00:02:44

Let's.

Kelsey: 00:02:44

Yeah, let's set it. Is it set the stage or set the scene? Which is the phrase?

Erendira: 00:02:50

Well, both.

Kelsey: 00:02:51

Okay.

Erendira: 00:02:52

Because you want to set the stage for the scene, but then you want to set the scene for the viewer.

Kelsey: 00:03:00

Well, the stage has already been set.

Erendira: 00:03:02

Everyone knows that. We're both five two emotional manifestors.

Kelsey: 00:03:06

Yes.

What they don't know, which is context, that I wondered if it might be nice to say is that we just spent the last two hours together in a collab call and it was intense. And then, and now we're here. So we're, we're arriving after an experience. Tm indeed.

Erendira: 00:03:26

An emotional one at that. So we're, we're still making our way through what just happened. We were guided by another manifestor to meet our inner children.

And I will, I will say that my inner child definitely encountered some of bigger relational wounds. Like some of the. Yeah, some of those, like early stories of like friendship and Connection and, like, safety in. At being able to do something new.

That's so vague.

Kelsey: 00:04:18

I feel like part of what I experienced was like, oh, God, will there be words for it? Like, the. Almost, like, the timelessness of the inner internal conflict I have. And I think what was coming through for me largely in that experience.

What I mean by timelessness is, like, I saw how long this has been here, this particular, like, existential crisis that is Kelsey's, of, like, feeling so alone and feeling sad about that, but also wanting everybody to leave me alone at the same time.

And I just, like, felt that sensation that I. I feel like I'm very consciously aware of it now as an adult and, like, understand it and, like, understand the dichotomy of it thanks to these systems that have, like, attuned me to self and self within the context of the whole. But I feel like what I left that experience with was an awareness of, like, that that's always actually been with me.

Sometimes when I look back, it feels blank. And I feel like I did some time travel and, like, went to some places from much earlier in my life and saw that.

That sensation of, like, I'm alone, and I kind of wish I wasn't, but also, I don't. I also don't wish I wasn't. I also just wish I wasn't having the sensation of aloneness around you all.

Erendira: 00:05:59

Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Kelsey: 00:06:03

Yeah.

Erendira: 00:06:04

I had an experience of, like, desiring.

It's like, I'm, like, I can't see where I'm supposed to go next, or I have a lot of fear around, like, the unknown that's in front of me, and I don't want to go by myself. And, you know, in this, like, meditation, having, like, a friend to walk with gave me a lot of, like, fortification.

But then ultimately, like, when we got to the place where, like, once it felt like an adventure, and once we got to, like, the threshold, I was like, okay, bye. Like, I don't. Like, I'm good now. I don't need to hold your hand anymore.

And actually, like, I'm going to go run off and play over here, and I probably will come back to you, but I need to go do my own thing for a bit. And so in, like, this similar way of, like, I. There's this, like, real need. Desire to, like, not be alone in something.

But then, like, once I feel the safety of, like, that connection, it's like, okay, and now I actually need to go be alone. Yeah, I need to go do my own thing and, like, meet the next people that I need to meet, and then I can, like, rejoin and integrate with others again.

But there does have to be some separation. Yeah, there just. There does have to be some separation at some point.

Kelsey: 00:07:38

I've been really tracking since. Is it episode five, Trust as the resource when you brought in your cross of uncertainty?

I've been, like, really tracking the way that you bring uncertainty forward. Like, both in the.

The wisdom that you carry about it and its role consciously, but also just, like, how much you are orienting to the concept of uncertainty for yourself all the time.

Erendira: 00:08:09

Yeah. You know, this is some. Some back context for people that are listening. When I joined. When I joined. When I discovered human design, I.

Kelsey: 00:08:21

When you joined the cult.

Erendira: 00:08:22

When I joined the cult of human design, I. I didn't have my birth time quite correct. And so I. You remember. Yeah.

Kelsey: 00:08:33

But I'm just laughing at the uncertainty. I made that connection.

Erendira: 00:08:40

So, like, my profile came out as a six, two, and, like, fear was my motivation, and it just, like, wasn't quite. Like, I've never. Like, I might just. I couldn't wrap my mind around fear. Like, I was like, I don't. Like, I don't experience fear.

And so it just has me thinking about, like, the distinction between fear and uncertainty, because I don't experience a lot of, like, fear in the uncertainty. Like, uncertainty just feels very. It's just like an. I don't know. And sometimes I wish that I knew, but, like, I'm not afraid of the unknown.

Um, but then when I.

When I finally was, like, I just don't know if this birth time is correct, and I played with, like, one minute in either direction, and when I, you know, removed a minute from my birth time, all of a sudden that. That color changed. But then, like, so did the profile line that went with it, and that was just like, what.

So all of a sudden it was like, innocence motivation and then, like, a 5. 2 profile.

Kelsey: 00:09:51

And.

Erendira: 00:09:53

Yeah, that just, like, it gave me so much more clarity around, like, so many things that, like, didn't make sense about, like, the first reading. Mm. But it also, like, then it was like, oh, gosh, a fifth line.

Kelsey: 00:10:12

That's lucky you.

Erendira: 00:10:15

Yeah.

Kelsey: 00:10:18

And I'm thinking about Allison's real. Do you know the. The popular one?

Erendira: 00:10:23

No, I don't think so.

Kelsey: 00:10:25

It's like. I think it probably seen it. I think she still has it pinned to her profile. It's, like, years old, but it's Allison Forseth one emotional projector.

She. It's her reading or it's her Lip syncing to the song from Wicked Popular. And it's like when you discover you're a fifth line in human design.

And I can't remember exactly the format of the reel, but it's like, you will be. And it starts with like, oh, yeah.

Erendira: 00:10:52

Yeah, Bueller, you're gonna be Popula. Yeah, no, I do. I remember seeing it.

Kelsey: 00:10:57

I want to do it justice for the. For Allison's sake and for listeners. Here it is. You will be. And then it says on one side, you hear it.

So one side says, popular, you're going to be popular. The universalizer, the sorry, the problem solver, the savior, the seductive and practical.

And then the other side says, ridiculed, you're going to be persecuted. And then the heretic projected on burned at the stake, paranoid and withdrawn.

So anyways, that's what was in mind as I was imagining you discovering your fifth line is like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

Erendira: 00:11:42

And it honestly, like, I know, like, the thing that we wanted to talk about was like, being a 5 2amongst other bodies, being in community. And yeah, like, it really did kind of clarify for me a lot of the tension that I've experienced in communities, like, throughout my whole life.

I was like, ooh, there is this. That's maybe that's why there was always this expectation of, like, leadership, of, you know, solving the problem.

And then, like, when you don't quite get it right, like, and for me, it never felt super duper, like, explicit, like, the rejection and like, community wasn't ever, like, burned at the stake, but it was just this, like, always felt like a slow turning away. And like, all of a sudden you're like, wait, like, everyone else is there and I'm here and like, what just happened?

So there was a lot of that that I was like, very, very nervous about, like, coming into collaboratory because I was like, I just. I don't know how to be around people. And I've just been hermiting for like, five years.

It feels like, so same, like this double layer of, like, I actually don't know how to be in creative collaboration at all.

Kelsey: 00:13:17

There's so much here. The. There's a word that was coming through for me in the meditation slash experience. It was like, jilted.

I was like, visiting these periods of time from my childhood that I felt jilted. And that was. I was being reminded of that as you were speaking just now because I was like, yeah, it burned at the stake. It wasn't like that.

It was like, there was like a left outness that I Think I felt a lot. And then this, like, simultaneous parts of me being really at peace with that because, like, I.

Like, I wanted people off of me manifesto stuff, but also the sensation of, like, hating, hating, feeling outside of it while I was right there and then. Yeah, one of the things I was thinking about just now is I really have experienced the archetypal burned at the stake thing quite a bit too.

But I don't entirely trust my memory on this. But I think that none of that happened for me until like, during and post Saturn return. And it was like.

As I was learning about fifth line stuff, it was just like, whoa. It's like manifesting so fucking undeniably clearly in front of my eyes.

But I always felt kind of tripped out by it because I would, like, look to my past for evidence that this is. This is a part of what I experience my whole life. And it wasn't like the. So it's.

So it's interesting to look back and tap into, like, these more subtle experiences that I can now see as, like, exclusion or ostracization or projection.

But they really did feel like everything I can find feels so much more subtle until a certain point in my life when it started to get really undeniable. And at this point, it felt like an initiation.

Like I was being initiated to face the worst potential of these types of situations so that I could learn to withstand them and not crumble and not lose myself in them. But, yeah, there's something about that that's always felt strange to me. Looking back and wondering, what was the 5:2 experience?

I feel like I can feel pretty clearly the closed aura experience of baby and child and teenage Kelsey, but I don't. Maybe that's just the nature of the five too. Like, when I look for it in the past, it feels foggy.

Erendira: 00:15:57

Yeah. Yeah, it does. Well. And that's why even when I was like, as there were some things.

And maybe it's just because there's so much like sixth color and tone in my chart where I just was like, being a 6:2, like, did make sense to a certain extent. Or being typed as a six two. So that when I was like, oh, fifth line. And I was like, is that even. Is that even there? Like, can I.

Kelsey: 00:16:22

It's.

Erendira: 00:16:24

It is. And. And then when I did find the moments, I was like, what's.

Kelsey: 00:16:27

Like.

Erendira: 00:16:31

It was weird because it was like I could feel some of the projections, but then they also felt like they kind of bounced off me. Like I didn't step into those projections, into those expectations. But I wonder if that was also like, you know, the.

The manifest or aura in some ways was like. Like push. Like pushes them off or like, I'm not going to be led somewhere. I'm not gonna be led somewhere if I don't want to go there.

Kelsey: 00:17:03

That makes me think also of innocence because I think I sometimes feel like there was a shattering that happened for me in this period.

I'm talking about around Saturn Return where I was experiencing getting burned at the stake and really actually having to work through feelings of paranoia and stuff and fear. Same thing. That was an additive. Don't know why I had to add that.

And then when I look back, I feel like I can kind of tap into like, oh, yeah, this mechanic was always there. There was like, often a jealousy, a pedestalization, an unexplainable hatred. But like, I. I didn't register it.

And I wonder sometimes if that's like an innocence thing. Like, I was literally just so, like, yeah, I do mean innocence motivation. But I also just mean, like the naivety of.

I mean, our closed auras are kind of like we are just not paying attention to everyone else as much as everyone else is paying attention to each other. And the second line, obtuseness.

Erendira: 00:18:08

Right.

Kelsey: 00:18:09

We're just like, in our own. So people are watching and, like, projecting all sorts of things and in both directions. But we're just like, what? You're looking at me. What?

Like, we're just so there. I wonder too about just like a naivety and an obtuseness to it.

And now that I see more, for better and for worse, it's like, I can't deny, like, I'm more psychic now. I'm more, like, sensitive. I'm more attuned to, like, relational dynamics and energy dynamics. I'm more discerning. Saturn Return.

So now it's like I can feel the projection. I can feel the distortion. And it's like parts of that are great and parts of that are.

Yeah, I kind of missed the naivety of, like, truly not knowing or caring it truly not being my business.

Erendira: 00:18:57

Yeah.

Kelsey: 00:18:58

What experiences of me people were having.

Erendira: 00:19:02

So what. What did it feel like for you? You know, we're like, wrapping up collaboratory.

We've been in this, like, container space for almost four months together. Like, did you. Did you experience, like, fifth line projections in this space or how did the fifth line show up for you?

Kelsey: 00:19:27

Yeah, I mean, I think I did to the extent that it's unavoidable that that happens. But I feel like, okay, let's See, you're gonna work this. Work this out in real time.

Like, I've thought about pieces of this throughout, and I've talked to some people in the container about it throughout, but I haven't really, like. I haven't really considered this from, like, a holistic perspective. So I feel a little unprepared. I guess I'm just like.

I'm a fifth line being, like, I'm not quite ready to universalize this yet, but I'll share some thoughts. I think there was, like. I think I have been really in this, like, playful. I've been assuming this playful orientation to my design and just my.

My meanness, my uniqueness, where I'm like, I'm.

Yeah, I'm kind of, like, over trying to work against it or trying to make it fit into something and just really, in this season of, like, playing with it. Well, if this is what it is, if this is who I am, is. This is my.

If this is my frequency, if this is my kind of impact, like, what does it look like to lean into that and initiate experiences, build relationships, collaborate with people in a way where I'm just, like, owning that role. So in a way, it's like owning that I'm going to be the face of a thing. And in a way that feels like it allows me to bother, protect myself.

But also, it's like a. I'm like, leaning in to projection as, like, a tool and leaning into projection as an inevitability. And the other piece, there's, like. There's more there, but that one doesn't feel that clear. The other piece is.

Did you see what I put in Discord a few days ago? I was like, I'm doing yoga right now, but there's this phrase that won't leave my head. Yeah, this thing.

We've been, like, the last couple weeks, we've been orienting a little bit to the question of, like, what happened here, what happened in collaboratory? And after we had shared on that a couple days later, this phrase kept popping into my head that was, like.

For me, part of what happened was I got to see. We got to see what happens when we don't make our own minds, each other's problems.

And so I feel like that's part of what I got to experience in collaboratory was, like, all the mechanics were there. The fifth line stuff, the manifester stuff, the upheaval, the problem. Like, all of it was there because all of it's always there. Like, we can't.

We don't.

We never get to not experience our mechanics and the mechanics, but like, I was so discerning about who was like, welcomed into this experiment with me that there were. I'm like, I want to be careful not to speak too in like too, absolutely speak in too much untrue absolutes, but I tend to do that.

So perhaps this is our hyper, hyper, hyperbole. But I didn't experience.

I feel like there were times that like, the shit was there and I didn't really worry that much about it because I trusted everybody to handle it in their own minds, you know. And also like the. The commitment that I had made to you all and to myself inside of this container was, was that I was going to trust you.

Yeah, right. Like this kind of this phrase Amalia or Quinn said recently, it was in a conversation between the two of them that got recorded.

I can't remember who said it, but it's like, there's nowhere to hide in here.

Like, that was my version of there's nowhere to hide is like, I have stated to you all that I trust you and I trust your ability to like, work through the inherent mechanics, including that of the projection field and the potential for you to be disappointed by me or by this experience. And like, yeah, I had like, set it up in a way that was like, that's gonna be okay if it happens. That's not gonna swallow me.

It's not gonna swallow any of us. And so it really, it added a new level of self responsibility to me. But it's like chicken or the egg.

Because I wouldn't have been able to lean into my own self responsibility around that had we not assembled a group of like, really self responsible, kind, compassionate, loving, self aware people.

Erendira: 00:24:08

Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, I don't know, something that, like the word that's coming up for me right now is like, I don't know why leadership.

But like, I. I remember you saying like, the.

In some ways this was also like an experiment and like flattening like this idea of like, I'm the teacher, you're the student, and like, we're all collaborators, right? Like, we're all. And so in some ways like that. Yeah. I remember at the beginning there were like a couple moments because it's this like, it's like.

Yeah, I guess the question is like, well then what is leadership, right? Like, what does it mean to. Yeah, to like lead, right? And it's like that. And then it's like a fifth line.

As a, as a, as a manifester, it's like, we have these, like, mind ideas of, like, what leadership is, but what you gave us an opportunity to experience or experiment is that, like, leadership actually felt really different in this space. And it was really fluid and it was really, like, body motivated.

It was like when someone felt an urge or a response or the invitation, they stepped into a place where they were like, okay, and now, like, I'm going to help move the container. I'm going to help move the bodies in this direction.

It's like, leadership wasn't this, like, mental game of, like, okay, well, like, you're in charge, so now we are all going to submit. Or, like, you're in charge, so, like, here's the pedestal and, like, you're going to figure everything out for us. I don't know.

That was, like, my experience. I was like, coming up as I was listening to you is like, yeah, like, leadership in community just felt so. Well, I was really scared for it.

I was, like, really scared about that word. I think I've told you, like, like, leadership has felt like a burden in the past. Like, it's like responsibility has felt like a burden. And.

Kelsey: 00:26:32

I don't know, I've heard you say that so many times. And I, like, there's a way that I track it and I see it.

The more you share, the more I, like, see it in your experience and, like, what you mean when you say that.

And I'm realizing in this moment, I don't think this was a conscious thought I had, but in this moment, I'm like, oh, I think I was not relating that much to Aaron Dearest saying that. But in what you just said in the beginnings here of your retrospective on collaboratory, I'm seeing, like, I was trying to take the Bert.

The part of the leadership that feels like a burden to me. Like, I very intentionally went into collaboratory and was like, I'm gonna lay down that burden.

Like, I don't actually wanna lead in a particular way. I wanna lead in the way that I lead. So I'm gonna design this. What the fuck even is this container?

And I'm gonna just, like, I tasked myself with just, like, being as honest as possible with you all and with myself throughout about what I did wanna lead on and what I didn't and what I knew and what I didn't. Um, and, like, there were things about the container that, you know, we haven't integrated it yet.

So it's early on in the, like, the simmering and understanding. There were things about it that I feel like did were sacrificed and Compromised because of that.

Erendira: 00:27:52

Yeah, yeah.

Kelsey: 00:27:53

Like, there were moments where I would get off a call and be like, that could have been tighter, more clear, more efficient. And there were like, parts of me that wished that they had been, but I was also like, but this is the ride that I'm on.

Like, this was the experience I wanted to have. Was like, if I really lean into a lot of it is like the truth of my emotional authority. Right.

And it's like I know the difference between when I'm clear and I'm speaking and acting from that place and when I'm not. And I was not clear a lot of the time. And so I still had to show up and be honest about my lack of clarity.

And like, that is one way that my experience of, quote, leadership, which I want to come back to that word on a different thread, but my experience of what we're talking about right now.

This concept of leadership really differs from like homogenized understandings of what leadership is like, which I guess this is the moment where I come back to it, where when I think about, like, what do I. I don't know, I don't know how to phrase it. Like, what is leadership to me or how do I relate to leadership to me? It really just feels like I lead at doing the things that I'm good at.

I lead at doing the things that are me. And so much of that is like surrendering to the non negotiable nature of the differentiated self.

And I lead by surrendering to that and embodying that and inviting others to do that. And that's always what my. My flavor of leadership has felt like. I wouldn't call that leadership in a lot of ways.

I think a lot of people wouldn't call that leadership in a lot of ways. It's the very like individual leadership. Right. But that is what happened in collaboratory. That's what happened.

It's like there was a lot of self attunement and a lot of like a much more loud and persistent way of showing up very fully as oneself with everything that that brought. Which sometimes was not what we wanted. Yeah, yeah, whatever that means. I've heard.

Erendira: 00:30:08

Like not what we want. Yeah, I mean, that's funny. I. I don't think I expected experience very much of that. And I think it's like, I wonder.

I mean, you gestated and initiated collaboratory, so your experience of collaboratory, like, was going to be different than the rest of us. So like, for me, I wasn't like, I wasn't thinking about I wasn't thinking about what everybody else wanted.

I just was very concerned about, like, my own experience.

Kelsey: 00:30:52

Oh, my God. That's like, okay, so obvious, but so obvious. Like, I'm ju. I'm just now realizing that I was holding that part alone. Like, of course I was.

But like, yeah, there's something about that. Yeah.

And I think, yeah, I think, like, that's maybe there's the rub a little bit for me is like, what I really want is to be in a truly collaborative experience where I'm not holding that. And so it was.

It was very, like, interesting and nourishing for me to get to experiment with that a little bit more, to be, like, very aware of when I was holding that in a. In a way that I maybe didn't need to, but I did still need to hold that here. Like, I couldn't completely leave that. Right. So that was like.

That was a very, like, if I can't find the right word, like. Like those.

That was a place of friction for me that was generative, but also uncomfortable because in the past it was easier to be like, well, I have to. So I wouldn't work through it. You know, I'd be like, well, I have to. This is what I told people I would do. This is what they expect.

This is how classes work. This is how these kinds of exchanges work. And this collaboratory, the whole thing was like, we're going to fuck all that up.

Like, from the onset it was like, no, not that. Don't know what, but not that. So it was like, yeah, it was like my orientation to needing to have that level of care and consideration.

And like, shepherding was like, both more. I had more permission and more self responsibility and more agency to fuck with that and see what versions of that felt good and what didn't.

But I still had more than I ultimately eventually would like to a level of tethering that did make me feel not free. Does that make sense?

Erendira: 00:32:44

Oh, yeah. And I. I think what I'm also hearing is this, like, it's like the tension.

Because even though, like, we're whole bodies, like, there are parts of us that are always going to be in tension. Like, I hear a tension between like, the fifth line and the manifester, where, like, the manifester is like, I.

Like, I know the piece that I've initiated and like, all I wanted, like, I just want to do that piece. Like, I don't. But then, like, the fifth line is like, but what are people gonna think? And like, how am I going to be perceived?

Kelsey: 00:33:17

And what's practical?

Erendira: 00:33:18

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So this, like, it's like I only. It's left angle cross.

Kelsey: 00:33:22

Like, it's like, I'm. We are responsible as blind minds. Like, we want to be responsible in a way. Yeah.

Erendira: 00:33:29

Yeah.

So I guess I just, like, I was hearing that and, like, feeling like, the difference or, like, this, like, space between, like, the leadership of, like, initiation, but then, like, the leadership of continuation. And. Yeah, I don't know where I'm going with that, but that's like. Yeah, that's all I've got.

Kelsey: 00:34:04

No, it's great. Like, it's. It's such a. Let's just say this for listeners that I've been reflecting this whole experience, that being.

Going through this experience with Aaron Deira is like a funhouse mirror situation. Because so much of what Aaron Deira, like, says for about your own experiences, like, I see so much of myself in that.

And on one level, I'm like, of course I do. We're both emotional five two manifestors. And on another level, I'm like, can I trust that I see myself in that? Am I just fully projecting?

You know, so all of that to say there's been very little, I feel like, throughout, where you've reflected back to me, so that just.

Even just now and everything on this call you've shared has felt like such a gift, like your reflection of what you're hearing from me right now and what you've seen in me right now. I feel like I haven't gotten that much of that from you. And so I'm really enjoying it and I hope there's more to come.

Um, but also I'm curious to know and, like, this is a whole conversation, but let me just plant these seeds and we'll see if they bloom. Throughout this conversation, I'm curious to know about your own experience. Like, you.

The, like, hesitation that you had around community, like, and being perceived in this way as a 5:2, and the connectiveness, perhaps, and the tension around that as a manifestor. I'm also curious about this thing you brought in of, like, specifically the nervousness isn't the word you used, but around leadership.

Because I don't know what you're talking about there, and I'm curious to hear more about that.

So, like, the Aron Deira experience, anything that you feel ready to share that's stewing around that, like, kind of retrospectively what you were scared of and then what happened. But I'm also curious to hear, as a 5:2 emotional manifester with so much in common with me, what the, like, trippiness of the.

The mirror of each other has shown you about your own relationship to leadership, initiation, community? Like, what has it been like to watch someone with such a similar design to you in these specific fucking ways?

Like, yeah, I'm just, like, very curious because I know I've gained a lot from watching you. Like, I've learned a lot about my internal experience. I've learned a lot about my relational experience just from watching you narrate yours.

And so, yeah, I'm just curious to hear your.

Erendira: 00:36:24

Your.

Kelsey: 00:36:25

You. What happened for you on the other side of that.

Erendira: 00:36:28

Yeah. Oh, gosh, I'm trying to remember. Do you remember what happened when I, like, left you that voice note and I. Oh, no, I remember. I think partly is I.

Kelsey: 00:36:47

I learn.

Erendira: 00:36:47

A lot about myself. Yes. Like, through watching other people.

Like, I, I. I do hear myself in their stories, but I haven't had a lot of experience, obviously, with, like, another 5:2 emotional manifestor. So in some ways, like, you're. Well, I think you're the only one I know. So I've been. I've been watching you for a while, but.

And definitely, like, you know, own that I had my projections of Kelsey.

Kelsey: 00:37:16

Okay, don't tell me them because I am fragile, so you can keep those to yourself.

Erendira: 00:37:22

Well, no, not. Not bad projections, but just, like, these projections of, like, wow. Like, here is this person who, like, really has their shit together.

Like, knows how to kill me.

Kelsey: 00:37:33

So weird. But I think that about you too. Sorry to interrupt.

Erendira: 00:37:37

That's so funny. But just, like, this, like, sense of, like, wow, they.

They know how to talk about their, like, their gifts and their offerings in a way that, like, really, like, ties people. And just. I've been in.

I just been watching you to learn about myself because in some ways, I'm like, well, if Kelsey's able to do this, then, like, so am I. There are, you know, things that make it harder. You know, hanging gates, things like that. But ultimately, I'm like, I do.

I do see you as, like, a reflection of, like, what's possible for me. And where was I going with that? Oh, so I. I mean, I think I even told you when I was filling out the application for this, I was like, you.

Like, I also have, like, similar feelings around. There are ways for us to gather as humans that don't. Like, we, like, are not visible in our, like, collective consciousness yet. But what you.

Like, when you had your Google Doc, I was like, I actually have something really similar that is wanting to come out of me and. But I feel like I haven't had as much time being a 5:2. You know, like, I've been in a human. My human design experiment for five years, going on six.

Six years. I don't know, something like that. Five or six years. But, like, the five two part, like, it just reoriented everything.

So there's some things that I'm like, I'm still a baby.

Kelsey: 00:39:21

The original attunement was, like, a little bit off.

Erendira: 00:39:24

Right, right. And so there's like, a lot of stuff about, like, a fifth line that I'm like, I don't like, I don't know.

So, yeah, just like, watching the way that you. You talk about, like, mystery and, like, seduction, where, like, those words never quite like, It was like, oh, yeah, I. I do do that.

And I don't even, like, I don't even, like, I don't think that I'm being mysterious or seductive, but, like, yeah, I get people telling me all the time, like, I don't like, what do you like, what is going on? Yeah, like, we cannot see you. And it's not like we can't see you because you have a closed aura. It's like, we can't see you because there is, like.

But there was this moment where I was, like, trying to launch tending the revolt, and I was, like, practicing. That was my big practice for, like, collaboratory, was figuring out, like, what is it? What does it look like for me to launch something?

And you were launching your course at the same time, very similarly timing. And I remember this, like, moment where you, like, posted something. And I, like, felt this, like, pang of jealousy.

I think I told you about it, where I was like, oh, gosh, like, Kelsey just, like, does that so easily. And then I was like, whoa, there, like, that is. That is 100% a projection.

And like, and then it was also like, but if Kelsey can post like that, like, so can you. And it was just being with you has been very, like, permission giving for me to just.

Yeah, to just, like, let myself be seen and allow how other people see me to be, like, their responsibility.

And that, like, my responsibility is to as much as possible, like, peel back some of the layers so that people can actually experience my own frequency. That's my responsibility. However it lands is everybody else's responsibility.

But my responsibility is to, like, tune into me, feel the words that want to come out, and then, like, actually let them be shared.

Kelsey: 00:42:07

And.

Erendira: 00:42:10

Yeah, I know we all have our own, like, feelings about ourselves, but I do think you do that. Quite well. And I know you have your own internal emotional ups and lows, highs and lows about that.

And I think you have gotten to a place where there might be less resistance, and so. Or at least you, like, can recognize the resistance. And so you're like, well, I'll meet you and I'm gonna, like, move through that. And so.

Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I think there's another piece that's coming up is like. Maybe I'll say a little bit about my, like, past experience.

I think I've, like, sprinkled throughout episodes. But being in, like, like, organized religion is. I mean, you talk about, like, homogenized community, right?

Like, belonging ultimately is, like, through, like, ascent of, like, belief and doctrine and participation in rituals.

Kelsey: 00:43:45

And.

Erendira: 00:43:48

Yeah, there's, like, always, like, mystical, like, streams and threads in. In these, like, systems. But they're outliers. They're, like, marginal. They're never, like, at the center.

And so to, like, align with that, well, like, like, leaves you on, like, the margins of, like, systems and organizations. And I have always been someone that has, like, that bent. But I also, like, want to be. I say, like, I want to be a body among bodies.

Like, I really, like, that is how we, like, learn. That's how we grow. That's how we transform. That's, like. That's how change ripples. And I don't know. I. At least for me in those spaces, it was.

It was like I could. I could perform really well.

Kelsey: 00:44:55

I could.

Erendira: 00:44:55

I could perform belonging. I could say the right things. It's not that I didn't believe them. It's not that I didn't feel them, but I also felt more than what I was saying.

But the more than was never quite received with, like, open arms like that.

That was the piece where it's like, well, maybe, like, you need to get rid of that a little bit so that you can be this type of leader, so you can move into this role where you can have this kind of power. And I don't, like. I know that power is important in terms of, like, change, but I'm not, like. I don't want power necessarily.

Kelsey: 00:45:45

Power is a literal distraction for you.

Erendira: 00:45:48

Indeed, it is. What am I trying to say? I think I lost my thread.

Kelsey: 00:45:57

Well, there's just a lot of threads, and I'm.

Erendira: 00:45:59

I know there's.

Kelsey: 00:46:01

There's one if you're. If. If you want me to come sew some threads.

Erendira: 00:46:05

Yeah, okay. So whatever.

Kelsey: 00:46:09

I don't. I don't know if that's what's gonna happen.

But just like there's a piece of what you were saying that I think I was feeling, but I'm wanting to like, speak it back. And maybe I'm looking to see if I'm under. If I am hearing what you're saying, but maybe it's also just another direction of like.

I feel like there was a point at which you were talking about like being on the margins when you. I think you used the word attune to like the mystical. And I felt like the words that you were using, I was like. I felt like.

I thought I knew what you were talking about, but I wasn't quite sure. And so, yeah, I just want to like, play with that.

So were you saying that like, even in the kind of collectivized, homogenized, almost like flattened articulations and organizations around spirit and the spiritual, even in those, there are like, there are like the presence. There is the presence of like God and spirit. But.

And when one shifts the focus from how the tribe or the collective orients to the concept of spirit directly to instead to the individual's relationship to spirit and spirit itself, we the one who has shifted focus right towards the spirit instead of through the pathways that the tribe and. Or the collective has created towards spirit, than we become on the margins. That's like, that's where I was going and trying to understand.

Erendira: 00:47:50

I think that's right. I think that's right. I think maybe I'll say it in a way that like a very different way.

I was like articulating it to a friend this morning who was reading me some. I don't even remember what she was reading me, but I was thinking that belonging in homogenized world requires a binary.

So yeah, you, like things are either good or bad. They're in or out. You know, they're evil or not.

Kelsey: 00:48:37

They resource or they extract.

Erendira: 00:48:40

Exactly. And, and so like to. And to like be in. To be in a tribe, to be in a community, like in order to belong, it's like you have to.

You have to agree to see things from that lens. Because if, if you don't, then you don't belong, then you are outside of the group.

Um, and I suppose I experience spirit as non binary, as encompassing all. And that when like, like good or bad is just a matter of perspective.

It's just like from where you're standing, something appears as good or bad because someone could be standing on the other side and. And say, well, actually you're wrong. What you think is good is bad. And what I think is bad is good and it is all true.

Like, who's to say like what's true or what's not true?

And so, yeah, like, to, to be in like the mist hole, to be in the etheric in some ways is to say, well, like the binaries, they dissolve and like, everything is. And like to say everything is means that like, you, like, belonging in the tribe is just like, it's difficult. There's. There's that tension.

And so as someone who like, orients in that way, who like, does say, like, I don't know, like, binaries are an illusion. They, like, keep things together in this, like, world to an extent, but they're not real. That like, that's gonna put you in tension.

And so then it's like. And then it's like leadership requires the ascent. And so, like, how can you be a leader if you are holding the non binary, you know?

Yeah, and I think that was like a tension that I. It was like, I can suppress this part and like, be a leader or I. I don't suppress that, but then I won't experience anyway.

I don't really know where we're moving with this right now, but I. Yeah.

Kelsey: 00:51:10

There'S several places my mind is going with all of this. Some more tangible and some more possibly impossible to articulate. And of course I'm drawn to those ones. Here's a tangible one.

I wrote two things down. We'll see if they come through. I'm really. Okay, here's the less tangible one. What you said about leadership requires the ascent, like, stirred a lot.

And I'm. I'm interested in following that thread, but a lot there feels possibly inarticulable, but I'm interested in playing with that with you.

But the more tangible one I'm thinking of is the words I've been using of the collective, the tribe, and spirit and individual. The sort of generic understanding of those words I think does apply, but I am just to be explicit.

My own use of them is being informed by the concepts in human design circuitry of collective, tribal, individual. And I found myself really tuning into this global cycle shift that we're all experiencing and that we're all bringing forth.

It's happening through our own transformation.

It's happening through each of our deconditioning, each of our recalibration, each of our spiritual awakening, each of our healing is what's bringing this shift. It's not outside of us. It's what's here, it's what's happening. But one of the simplest ways to look at it.

I'm saying this to ground the point I'm getting to. But also to provide a little bit of background context to listeners. We're moving from a period of time that was influenced in these proportions.

I wanna make sure I get this right. Five collective. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just gonna pull it up. Cause I don't wanna get it wrong.

And I have it because I talk about it a lot and forget it a lot. Okay, so we're moving from an era that has four collective is influenced in these proportions. Four collective, three tribal, one individual.

Into an era of one collective, two tribal, five individual. And up to this point, what we've been talking about. This kind of juxtaposition of spirit. As it. What's the word I want to use?

Kind of like transcends or supersedes the binary. I'm thinking a lot about the binary and the mind and the Maya being a bit more accustomed to the tribe.

Like, you made these connections to the tribe and the binary. But also the collective. The collective is, like, about learning and understanding and sharing. And in many ways homogenizing.

And like, both the tribe and collective feel more oriented to mind and Maya to me. And this might not be true, but this is how it all is correlated in my system versus the individual.

And what's taught in human design is that individual circuitry is about mutation. Like mutation and transformation and empowerment. Awakening happens through individual circuitry. And individual transits and individual programming.

in the cross of planning era,: 1615

So we could say what was coming through as I was listening to you talk. Is that the tribe and the individual were like utilities for the collective. The point during this last era was for the collective to thrive. For the.

For the collective part of the human experience. Like, it took the front seat. And that's where we saw globalization and all of this, like, in incredible growth. And also, like fucking homogenization.

But homogenization allows for growth, right? But it doesn't allow for mutation. It doesn't allow for awakening. So it's like there was still individual influence, there were still individuals.

But all of that was like a means for the collective. And we're shifting into, like, a reverse of that. Where the collective and the tribe will still be here in smaller proportions.

But they will serve as a means for the individual in the next era. And not the other way around. So that's like. Yeah, that's it. That's in part where my mind was going. Like the.

The constant relationality between these parts of the human experience, experience that are the. The I, the we, and then like the collective we, the I, the. The smaller we and the big we. It's shift like a situation.

Everything is still relational, everything still informs one another, everything is still entangled with one another. But it's getting remixed. It's getting remixed and renegotiated the proportions of how it shows up.

And in this next era in Sleeping Phoenix, we're moving into an era where the collective and the tribe will serve the experience of individuality, which is about awakening and mutation. And so, yeah, just feeling the shift of even thinking about. The one individual gate in the last era was inner truth.

And then that's 61 in the head center. And that's opposite 62 detail, which is one of the collective gates.

And just like that, polarity is so much about information and having a lot of information about how things work and about the mysteries of life. And having those emphases in this last era is a huge part of what got so much of humanity to the point where we can now awaken.

So I'm trying to connect the dots of like the organized religion that did have the potential to homogenize and flatten and squash the individual and squash the experience of spirit into something more digestible did all of that. And also it served its purpose, which was to get to spread the information, to spread the word, to teach the skills.

All the school, the mystery schools, the less mysterious schools.

Like there's been so much accessible that now in this individual moving into this individual era, all these like differentiating beings are like finding the things that speak to them.

Erendira: 00:57:57

Yeah.

Kelsey: 00:57:58

All the different ways that you can connect to God, but still through these like external collective tools so that we can find ourself through them. That was the tangible thing, believe it or not.

Erendira: 00:58:12

Okay. I actually, I can make it more tangible. Great.

Kelsey: 00:58:16

Pull it down, Taurus.

Erendira: 00:58:17

Pull it down. This is what we did in collaboratory, actually is what we did.

Like the coal, the collaboration in the collaboratory, what it did was it allowed all of us to be in our own bodies and know our own truths. And that knowing of our own truth, it couldn't have come apart from being among the others.

And that's what was so special about this space for me is that it's like, oh, I don't actually have like belonging. I think I wrote this down. Belonging in collaboratory wasn't about everyone being on the same page. It wasn't about everyone agreeing.

It wasn't about everyone experiencing self, God, community, ritual, whatever. In the same way, belonging came from showing up as your differentiated self and trusting that your body knew what was best for you and.

And in such was going to be the correct thing for the group.

Kelsey: 00:59:25

Mm, yep. The tribe as a means for the individual, not the other way around.

Erendira: 00:59:32

Yeah, yeah. And like, I mean, I don't have any experiences with that. I don't have any models. Like, there's not a lot of models for that, you know, so there are.

Kelsey: 00:59:48

Literally no models for that because the model is a collective thing.

Erendira: 00:59:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I'm really interested moving forward with, like, I'm still kind of on my quest for, like, this. What is belonging?

Like, what is identity? What is purpose? Like, what is meaning? Making as we are in these, like, I call it, like, shifting spiritual landscape. Like, things are shifting.

Like, things are not. Like, we're on shaky ground.

And so the ways that we, like, understand these, like, aspects of, like, self in relation are not what they have been, but we can't quite see what they are becoming. And so we're all just kind of like, you know, throwing spaghetti on the wall trying to figure it out.

But I do think that there's like, a part of it where it's like, like belonging. Like, belonging. Maybe this is my universalization is like, belonging is not going to come by everyone agreeing to do and be the same thing.

Belonging is going to need to occur by all of us, like, knowing how to listen to our body and, like, trust our body. And when we can do that, we're going to experience a belonging that is, like, not binaried.

Because what's true for me doesn't have to be true for you, but does it make it any less true? And what's true for you doesn't have to be true for me. It doesn't make it any less true.

Kelsey: 01:01:22

This feels really big and I feel like this being that. That feels really big. And I'm like, I'm in this. I feel like I'm in this little careful space right now of, like, wanting.

Not wanting to go past that, because that feels big and I want to zoom in on it. And it also feels fresh. And so I'm like, don't quite know where to go with it. And I'm like, just wanting to hold it and let it have its moment.

But a question that came up is, like, what is belonging? What does it mean to belong? And I started feeling into, like, belonging as, like, a tick.

Like having, like, a tick to try to belong, and then feeling into, like, unmet needs. You know, like, what's actually underneath what's underneath that? When you feel yourself wanting to belong, what are you actually feeling?

And to whom do you want to belong? To what?

Like, I don't have answers, but I'm like, I think these questions are important, and I think these are questions that that many of us faced inside of the container of collaboratory.

Erendira: 01:02:39

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:02:42

Belonging is. Is so much. This is to the point I feel you've been making this whole time. Like, belonging is so abstract, actually, like.

Like, so much of what I feel fucking elated and jazzed about that I've gotten to experiment with over this last season, not only in collaboratory, most concentrated and intensely in collaboratory, but also in what I'm doing a little more, like, peripherally and casually in my patreon right now, is like, there's this, like, cool world building thing that's happening that was both intentional and not, like, it's so cool. I feel like perhaps there's versions of this that will resonate with you as, like, a fellow innocent emotional manifester.

It's like, as things are playing out, there is like both the part of me that's like, huh, Exactly. Like, I felt the imprint of that when it's seated. Exactly. And then it's also like, whoa, this is the shape that this is taking.

And they're like, both of those things are so one and the same and happening simultaneously. So one of those things that I'm both like, whoa, fuck, cool. What?

And like, yes, of course, about is like, the little kind of world building happening of, like, I'm loving all. Like, there's all these different sizes and scopes and shapes of conversations happening inside collaboratory. Like, some of them are on lab partners.

Some of them are two people on lab partners. Some of them are four. Some of them didn't know they were going to be lab partners episodes. Some of them are a quick voice note.

Some of them are a really intense two hour zoom call between two of us or four of us. Some of them are like a single phrase that got typed in the discord. Some of them people who are not the eight of us are listening to.

Some of those people who aren't the eight of us listening to it are in our voice notes impacting us right back with the reflections. And then we're bringing that back.

Erendira: 01:04:35

Right?

Kelsey: 01:04:35

And, like, this is also Happening in this side world of quality time, which is this, like, private podcast that I started on my Patreon, where only my alumni are chatting with me. And it's a little private podcast. And, like, some of them are listening to lab partners and being so impacted by what's happening there. And then I'm.

And it's just like, grid work. And it's like.

Like watching the thoughts, these thought forms and these permissions and these realizations and these awakenings just, like, seep through the grid.

Erendira: 01:05:03

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:05:03

And, like, hit in all these different places. And, like, you're spreading that in your own way. And I'm spreading it here and Noah's spreading it here. And now I have to mention everyone.

Amalia, Quinn, Maru, Steph, Nick. Did I get everyone?

Erendira: 01:05:16

I think you did.

Kelsey: 01:05:17

Okay. I'm so scared. I love you all so dearly. And, like, we're also making our own, like, the. The kind of impact that will come through this conversation.

The specific. Aaron, Dear Kelsey Brand, you know, and anyways, it's just like. Okay, hold on, wait.

I got lost in my very, like, legitimate fear that I left someone out. I'm going to edit it in if I got it wrong anyway, I don't think.

Erendira: 01:05:41

I think you did.

Kelsey: 01:05:41

Okay.

Erendira: 01:05:42

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:05:45

But wait, hold on. I want to see if I can get back. The world building. What was it before then? There was something before I went on the world building side quest.

It's gone. Do you remember what we were talking about before that?

Erendira: 01:06:13

I don't.

Kelsey: 01:06:14

Okay, that's fine. It'll come back if it needs to. I felt very impassioned saying all of that, so whatever that's out there now and I'll. We'll see if I.

Whatever I was trying to get to makes its way back.

Erendira: 01:06:26

It will. If not now. No, I mean, I just. I was. I was picking up, like, just the. The cross pollinization of it all.

Kelsey: 01:06:40

There's the word for it. Yeah.

Erendira: 01:06:43

The. Yeah, I guess the. The thing that was popping up for me is like.

Kelsey: 01:06:56

I think belonging is abstract belonging.

Erendira: 01:07:02

And yeah, I think it in some ways might be. Might be as simple as, like, I just want to be seen and not rejected.

Kelsey: 01:07:18

Yeah.

Erendira: 01:07:21

And.

Kelsey: 01:07:28

Yeah, it was. It was belonging. That was the thing.

The specific thread that I was, like, planning to return to was, I know that some people see what's happening in collaboratory and are, like, have FOMO about it. Right. And I know this in part because of how much I've watched Fifth line shit. Like, I know what it looks like.

Erendira: 01:07:58

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:07:59

I know how Magical and impactful. It is. And I also know what people see from the outside of that and what they project onto it from the outside of that.

In this sense of, like, if only I had that, I would feel a sense of belonging. And, like, this, that knowing that I have that people are watching and their minds are going. If only I had that, then I'd be happy. Then I'd be okay.

That same sentiment is why I wanted to have the trust as a resource convo, because I feel people looking at me in that same way when it comes to. To, like, money and success. And you even. You even said that in your own, like, OG projections of and not that far out projections of me.

Like, and that's the thing is, like, it's not binary. Like, I am. Yeah, I am happy. You know, I am good. And it is not what you think.

And the barrier that you think you have to resourceness, belonging is not the thing you're projecting onto me or onto collaboratory. And, like, one of the things that I was wanting to say is, like, there are people who be.

Who are part of collaboratory, who are not in the eight of us. Like, there's people, Mel and Caitlin, who have been my first two convo partners on quality time.

Like, what they've shared with me has been so informative to how I've showed up here, and they're listening.

Allison, who has been a teacher of both of ours, a co teacher of mine, has taught a lot of people in the collaboratory space is not directly a part of it, but it's very much a part of what's happening here.

You know, like, there's other peers I have who have, like, whether they know it or not, directly or not, like, totally informed what's happening here. Like, belonging. It's like that. That. That cliche, or is it a Bible verse or something that's like, love is a river freely flowing or something.

Like, it's not something we have to earn. It just is. Like, that's belonging too. That's resourcedness.

Erendira: 01:09:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelsey: 01:09:54

There's like, this piece of me that just wants to, like, bring some heresy to the projection fog around that. To the seduction of it is like, is the sense of belonging and freedom and resourceness and being seen.

Like, it is alluring, but we project so much onto those things that then stop us from actually being able to access the ways that we already have them.

Erendira: 01:10:18

Right, right. The separation is an illusion.

Kelsey: 01:10:23

Yeah. And like, okay, there's this other thing that came up. I'm curious if this Resonates for you or not?

Because I've been talking about this with, like, I forget where it originated, but I feel like I've been talking about it the most directly with Amalia, But I think it's come up with a few other people too. But I don't think I've named it with you yet. This, like, feeling of. It's kind of connected to that phrase that I love. Wherever you go, there you are.

Erendira: 01:10:47

Okay.

Kelsey: 01:10:48

But there's also this feeling of, like, when you get the thing that you've been yearning for, and then you're like, oh, shit. I still don't feel like I belong. Fuck. I still don't feel resourced. Damn. I still don't feel satisfied, whatever it is. And it's like that.

That moment of disappointment is a fucking ticket if you let it be. Like, it's a ticket to fucking liberation. But now I'm back to that thing we were. We were, like, picking out in.

Trust is the resource of, like, people go. The people get right there, and then they don't let that moment be a ticket.

Erendira: 01:11:26

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:11:26

Because they just like, double down in the. Into the projection field and into the mental construct of, like, well, if only I could have afforded a group experience like this.

t one comes up for me. A lot.: 2551

A design of needing to be first. It's like the if onlys. If only, if only. If only. Like, that's binary. That's scarcity. That's lack.

That is the thing actually stopping you from the sensation of being seen, feeling resourced, feeling like you belong.

Erendira: 01:12:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The victimization. Self victimization. Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:12:09

But. So, okay, the.

The connected point to, like, collaboratory specifically is like, I feel like one of the archetypes of the experience that happened in here. And this does feel like one of the one. Like one of the rides I.

Inside collaboratory is like, oh, I got the thing I wanted, and then all my shit was right here still, you know, Like, I want, like. And I. I don't think I was surprised by that. Is it my defined ego or my undefined Ajna, which one's speaking right now?

Like, I don't think I was surprised by that, because I think I understand just the. The nature of reality and the nature of awakening and falling asleep and waking up. This is what it is.

You face your same fucking neuroses over and over and over and they just have a little less of a hold on you. So in some ways I'm a hundred percent behind that statement. Like, I was not. I'm. I'm not surprised by wherever I went there I was.

I'm not surprised by like I entered this field of like hand picked people that I fucking love, that I was like, go ahead, project on me. I trust you with that. And I'm gonna let myself fall apart here. And like, I was transformed by it. And also there wasn't anything new.

And also all the shit that I faced before collaboratory was here and it will be with me in the next round of whatever too.

Like all the ways that I tell myself I don't belong, that I tell myself I'm not seen, that I tell myself I'm not valued, that I tell myself I'm not resourced, they're still here and I still saw them play out, but I was able to be with them in really different ways, able to meet myself there in much more honest ways. I wasn't making my. My mind or deficits. Yeah, right.

Erendira: 01:13:52

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:13:52

Does that make sense?

Erendira: 01:13:54

Yeah, it does.

Kelsey: 01:13:56

Yeah.

I'm curious if there's anything like that for you, but I feel like you voiced so many times that you went into collaboratory with like really no expectations.

And that has served you so well because you've been able to be like, you've been able to just maintain a sense of like, gratitude and being with ness for whatever was here for you throughout. I feel like that's something I watched in your experience. But I'm also wondering. Yeah.

If there's a version of that that spoke to you in your own personal experience in this container. And perhaps or perhaps not, but I do want to bring this back in too.

Perhaps it's connected to what you face in your own self understanding around you in the context of community and what you get to have out of community and how you do and don't belong in community and how you are perceived and understood and misunderstood in community.

Erendira: 01:14:49

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think a lot. I mean, I did go in without expectation because I know my 35, 36 channel.

And if I put my put too much expectations onto an experience, the highs and lows are substantially more manic and devastating.

And so just in an attempt to, in this season of my life anyway, to manage some of that because I have to caretake a small human, I was like, I can actually, and I will say this is an aside, but it's fun to play with that channel and be like, there are some things that I actually, like, want to put expectation on, and I want to give myself the big highs and the big lows. And I like.

But I think because of the length of this container, I was like, I think it's going to suit me better if I really hold it loosely and just allow whatever surfaces to surface.

Kelsey: 01:15:49

But.

Erendira: 01:15:52

I mean, I think. I have had, like, a real fear around, like, resource exchange with others.

Like, I think I've known in the last, like, five years of trying to, like, figure out my own work that, like, I need other people. But I was in this, like, real, like, I don't know, like, like, one fear of money.

So I had to work through a lot of, like, money stories before I think I could even have entered this space. But then there was also this, like, resource exchange and of, like, this story of, like, needing things to be balanced. And, like, what is.

Like, what is balance? Like, what is equality? And, like, coming into collaboratory, like, really poked holes at that. That, like, life is not, like, tit for tat.

And, like, what we give doesn't always return to us in the way that we imagine, but, like, it does return to us. So there's, like, there's, like, one piece there.

Kelsey: 01:17:32

Sacred reciprocity versus, like, mental reciprocity.

Erendira: 01:17:36

Right.

But I also think that there is a piece because I was in another kind of community container before this for Sacred Spacity was like, was, you know, was a big thing. And I really struggled in that space, I think, because I felt like who I was wasn't really like, there was a lot of, like, sameness, expectations.

And so the sacred reciprocity felt like an. Like, an expectation rather than just something that, like, naturally, like, bubbled up versus when in collaboratory.

It didn't feel like an expectation. Like, I didn't feel like, okay, like.

Kelsey: 01:18:23

We'Re going to owe something.

Erendira: 01:18:25

Right? Right. It just kind of was like. I actually think by not naming it, it allowed it to exist versus giving it a name then puts us back into the binary.

Kelsey: 01:18:42

You know, I'm getting, like, compromise versus, but I don't know what the versus is. The closest word I have is, like, interdependence.

Erendira: 01:18:51

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:18:51

Is it like flow? Because I'm like, my Aries ness is like, we don't actually need to compromise. Like, I believe that. Yeah, I believe that. I understand that.

experiencing in community. My: 3740

You know, like, everything you just said is like, yes, that was a big part of this experiment for me too. And like, I'm actually really looking forward to when we're actually fully on the other side of it.

I think something's gonna happen where I'm gonna like, invite whoever of you is interested in like sitting with me in a. I don't know if a group or one on one or what, but like I. Once there's been some space to assimilate, I want to, and I think need to hear directly from people.

What was it like to enter this, like, confusing exchange?

Because I have a lot that's like, I'm not, I'm not allowed to ask for money to do the type of stuff that I do because the type of stuff that I do is very horizontal.

Erendira: 01:19:59

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:20:00

But this is what I do and I need money, you know, so like, I have a lot around that and I, I really like was. Was brave this season.

And like, there's versions of this showing up in my Patreon too, like with having people who pay to be on my Patreon making content with me on quality time, you know.

So like I'm, I'm just like doing it anyways because I said this to Mel in a telegram the other day, like, I need like new economies because in the economy that exists. I'm a non player because I don't have enough of the thing.

Erendira: 01:20:32

Right.

Kelsey: 01:20:33

That. That we consider to be resource.

I don't have money, but I have other stuff and I want to put my stuff into the economy and I want to be resourced by it.

But it's like really required me to be brave enough to say that this is what I want to do and this is what I need and like face whatever that brings up for people. And then it also required all of you to take a step into something that you didn't know what it was and to like, face some of this stuff as well.

Yeah, but I also want to know what the other thing is. But. Sorry, compromise versus.

Erendira: 01:21:05

No, no, no.

Kelsey: 01:21:06

I want to know what that other word is. But go wherever you're going.

Erendira: 01:21:09

Yeah, no, well, I was trying to find the word because it feels like, it feels like.

Kelsey: 01:21:19

Is it trust as the resource?

Erendira: 01:21:23

Well, I was, I was just thinking about like the way a healthy ecosystem finds like homeostasis. Like things give things, take things live things die. Like birds eat berries, poop more berries. You know, like it is a flow, like.

But I don't, But I'm. I guess I'm not thinking of it as, like, a flow and like a water sense. It feels more like. I don't know, like this. Yeah.

Like a system that's just like, that trust that does.

Kelsey: 01:22:11

Trust.

Erendira: 01:22:12

Yeah. Yeah. I think that might be the other word. And for me, like, the trust was that.

Kelsey: 01:22:21

Like.

Erendira: 01:22:27

By allowing myself to be seen by other people, like, two things would happen.

Like, one, they would be initiated into their own true selves, into their own bodies, and that, like, I would be initiated into the next thing that, like, I needed. Like, I don't know if that even makes sense, but it feels a little bit like the meditation that we went through this.

This afternoon where I didn't want to go on this journey, but as soon as I was given the option to go on the journey with a friend, I said, okay, that feels. That feels okay. Like, I can do this thing that I don't know as long as I'm not alone.

And, you know, I'm holding my friend's hand and I feel nervous, but I'm like. I feel like I can keep going, but by the time we get to the threshold, it doesn't feel like I don't know where I'm going anymore.

Now it just feels like an adventure. And now it's like, now I'm on an adventure with my friend, and, like, that's really cool.

And then we, like, cross the threshold, and now we're just playing and we're just having a lot of fun. And then at some point, I just. I need to take a break, and my. Me, I come in and tell them, like, look at all the friends I've made. And it's true.

Like, I don't need to know my path because my path appears when I'm, like, walking next to someone else.

Sometimes my path appears for myself, but in the moments that I can't see my path, just like, choosing to walk alongside somebody else on their path will actually open up my path for me.

Kelsey: 01:24:36

Yeah, that one.

Erendira: 01:24:38

Until today, I mean, I think I've been feeling it, but, like, the clarity of it was just like. Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:24:50

Yeah. I. Okay.

I feel like I want to push myself to share something that I feel, like, scared to share because I don't know what's going to come out, and because it feels sensitive and because it feels like one of those things that I sometimes, like, don't like being honest about my experience because of the thing we were talking about earlier where, like, I feel like I have a design and a frequency that makes it really easy for people to be jealous of me. That's a very dehumanizing experience. And so I like wanting to avoid that. So I temper.

So instead of tempering, or perhaps along with some tempering, I'm saying all of this, I feel like there's a thing that happens, okay, like, enter super defined single definition manifestor. I know where I'm going and I don't need any of you. That's not true.

But like on a frequency level, single definition manifestor, there's like a sense of individuality, like this is what's gonna happen through me and it can, as soon as my body's ready, it can happen, right? Like even just thinking about the difference between a split and single definition, like when my body's ready, it's like, here it comes.

Define ego, define G. Like, and I feel like I, I mourn. What are the words?

I grieve what's not available to all of us in those moments where it might be just the perfect medicine and just the right thing for somebody to just hop on my path with me and lend their resource to the direction I'm going to. But they won't because of this like, lack of humility that something about my frequency brings up in them. Like the jealousy, the projection.

And now it's like, turns out I can't actually do it alone. I needed your resourcedness, I needed your momentum, I needed your excitement. I needed your vision too.

But I always think about the not self hierarchy being sandwiched by the throat and the ego and just this like pernicious, not self tick to need to have been the one who willed it or who initiated it or who brought it. But I'm so often that one. Like I'm so often that one. And then like the here's my victim parts, like, I get punished for being that one.

I'm not trying to be that one. I was given this body graph just like you were given that one. You know, this is my role. I'm surrendering to this. And you don't have to come.

This is the thing I said on the manifester convo the other day, like, yeah, people can just say no, but a lot of times people don't say no. They join along with that bitterness with that, you know.

So, yeah, there's something, I was like, There was something coming together in your share of that that I was like, yeah, the humility of like being willing to go. There's a lot there. It's not just humility, it's surrender, it's trust.

It's like trusting in the belonging, trusting in the direction, trusting in the safety amidst the uncertainty. And, like, that's universal. But how that presents for each of us is very different.

Oftentimes, for me, the leaning into the trust is like, leaning into this sense that, like, I can't budge. I have to go where I'm going. I know that. And if I don't know, I'm not going anywhere. If I don't know, I'm staying right here.

And there's, like, a victimhood in that. There's a grief in that. There's a disconnection in that. There's a loss in that, because I want to be able to compromise.

I want to be able to join this and do that, but I can't. Like, my body won't let me. So, yeah, feeling a little. I don't even know if I'm feeling.

I think I'm wanting to compulsively say I feel insecure about saying that, because I have historically felt insecure about, like, just fully acknowledging some of these nuances of my experience. But I don't actually think I feel insecure about saying that right now.

I think I feel uncertain and some uncomfortable pressure about, like, how that's supposed to land within the context of the conversation. But it feels connected. I was feeling very inspired by your share about things I can't name because it was too complex and too nuanced, but of what.

What you moved through in the sunny experience today. And, like, I guess, like, kind of like grid work is the punctuation, right? Like, in that moment, you deferred to first. You deferred several times.

You deferred first to this group experience that you felt some resistance to, and then you deferred to being on Amalia's trajectory instead. And then you found your way through it. And everything I just said, like, I also want to erase it. Not. Not because I.

It wasn't true, but because I do have my versions of that, too.

Like, there was a lot in collaboratory where I did yield, and there was also a lot of times when I wanted to yield and there was nothing to yield to, and I hated that.

Erendira: 01:30:09

Right?

Kelsey: 01:30:10

So, like, yeah, yielding, deferring.

I'm just, like, very interested in this moment of our experiences of those things and how our experiences of those things translate to these tics around belonging and the homogenized orientations, the good, bad, binary orientations that we have around, like, deferring and direction and leading to bring back an early thread and how. I mean, like, here's the heresy, perhaps, is, like, you were bringing this in earlier of, like, we were both bringing this in earlier.

It's gonna come through in my words, because I'm me, but, like, the actual leadership, the actual way to navigate the complexity of this dance of interdependence, of yielding, deferring, of trusting, of stepping forward, of taking up space, of yielding space. The actual wisdom of that is in our own body's knowing, is in the simplicity of these tools, like strategy and authority. And it's. It's never.

It's never a mental plan. And the mind is always going to come in and there's a word, like, something along the lines of flatten, but, like, dumify, like stupefy.

Like, it's like what you were talking about with, like, when you actually attune to spirit, how that. And versus when you attune to the tribe instead, how that can kind of, like, dull or dim. It's like that.

It's like when we try to make it make sense to the mind. How am I going to be resourced from this? How am I going to get recognition from this? How's my ego going to get its little.

Erendira: 01:31:55

Mm.

Kelsey: 01:31:56

It's compromising the integrity of.

Erendira: 01:32:00

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:32:04

And I feel like that's like. The grid work piece was like, a piece about collaboratory that did kind of surprise me. I feel like.

Like, That theme as it came through, like, I think it's funny because it's called collaboratory, but I expected it to be about connection and community, but I expected it to be more actually about what we were making than it was, and it ended up being a lot about relationship and community and connection. So that. Yeah, that's like belonging. What does it mean to belong? Belonging looks different for each of us. Belonging isn't. Isn't static.

Belonging is an ecosystem experiencing the cycle of homeostasis. Collaboratory was more about that than I expected it to be.

Erendira: 01:33:16

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:33:24

I don't know anything I just.

Erendira: 01:33:25

Said I was tracking. Yeah, I. I just. I'm. I'm just. I'm thinking about how.

Just how it's going to take time for it all to settle, you know, for it to, like, really make its way into, like, into our bodies. Like, I think right now it's just kind of, like, landed, at least for me, like, on the surface. And I can, like. Yeah, like, I can.

I think today I saw, like, how deep. How deep it needs to go, you know, like, the feeling of that, like, little person in me being like, I just want a friend.

Like, I want a friend that I can have to, like, walk into These, like, uncertain moments with and, like, feeling, like, having felt it many moments in my life of, like, not having that, but, like, this is, like. And what I think I was going to say earlier is it's like, both. And right. Like, it's.

It's both having people, like, all of us in collaboratory who I know can hold my hand, but also what happened when I met myself was, like, me telling that little person, I'll always be there to hold your hand. Like, you always have a friend, and, like, you're actually not doing this alone. So it's this, like, we are, like, fortified by our relationship.

And there's also this, like, internal fortification that is, like, needs to be happening simultaneously. And neither one is, like, more important than the other. They're both necessary to the journey.

Kelsey: 01:35:17

Yeah.

Erendira: 01:35:18

That's it.

Kelsey: 01:35:19

Chicken or the egg? That's been coming up a lot. Chicken or the egg. I trust you because I trust myself.

Erendira: 01:35:28

Mm.

Kelsey: 01:35:30

And then I'm thinking about, like, the magic of what collaboratory has been. Has been a space that invited and then followed through on the conditions. Because it's like, is it the chicken or the egg? I don't know.

But both will be born here. Both will be nourished here. So it doesn't. It ended up not being. Needing to matter whether it was the chicken or the egg.

Erendira: 01:35:57

Yeah.

Kelsey: 01:35:57

Does that make sense? Like, we needed. We needed each other. We needed this experiment, and we needed our self responsibility, and we needed our agency and all.

And all of that was here. Yeah. I am so curious. I feel like everyone in collaboratory will be able to track everything we said, and I'm so curious about everyone else.

But, you know what? Belonging, Everyone listening is part of it too. So. I trust. I trust. Yeah. But this felt very clear and precise. It did for me as well.

Erendira: 01:36:42

It was fun.

Kelsey: 01:36:43

Yeah. Thank you for floating around in the disco ball foggy projection field with me.

Erendira: 01:36:52

Good to have a friend, Sam. Sa.