Welcome to Dying ~ with Maru & Amalia

Maru: 00:01:29

Lab Partners is a behind the scenes conversation series amongst eight folks who are in a season of experimentation with creating creativity, authenticity, relationship, collaboration and visibility. We're letting you in on our process as we unpack them together.

Amalia: 00:01:45

Each of us speaks the language of human design and some of us astrology as well. These frameworks for awareness have supported our embodied differentiation and relational understanding.

We invite listeners to observe us through these lenses too.

Maru: 00:02:00

Today's conversation is between me, Maru A6 2 sacral generator, Cancer Sun, Leo Rising and Virgo Moon and me, Amalia 46.

Amalia: 00:02:13

Emotional generator, Taurus Rising, Aquarius sun and Pisces Moon.

You can learn about our astrology and designs in the show notes and find even more about us and our other collaborators@kelseyrosetort.com LabPartners. Gorgeous.

Maru: 00:02:50

Hello. Hello. Come. Welcome to dying.

Amalia: 00:03:00

Yeah. Welcome to one foot on the roof, one foot in the grave. Yeah, we've got Maru here. We've got Quinn in and out. And it is Tuesday, November 18th.

At 3pm Central Time.

Maru: 00:03:28

And.

Amalia: 00:03:30

Amato put some stuff like said some stuff about death now, months ago or weeks ago, some amount of time ago. And I was just like, oh, there's conversations for us to have here and. Today'S the day or today's gonna be one of the days. And.

Yeah, I'm curious like where you find yourself today, Maru. Just in general and also in relationship to this giant. Concept.

Maru: 00:04:09

Yeah, yeah, we chose an easy one. Yeah. Well, I'm at a public library, which is one of my favorite places to be. I find libraries to be a pretty liminal space of just like.

It'S everybody's, you know, nothing feels particularly mine when I'm in a library or When I am reading library books. I am. Mostly okay. You know, I've. It's an. It's an interesting time in my life.

I just think a lot of things seems to be coming to a close and other things, like, it's just like. There's just been a lot of review. I feel lately, for me, especially around, like, relationships relating, you know. Feels like.

Like there's echoes that I'm sort of putting my finger on that I've been writing about and that I've been like. Like masticating on for a bit, that I'm now, like, better able to, like, test taste, maybe, and understand. So. Yeah, that's roughly where I am.

Where are you?

Amalia: 00:05:49

I am. So I'm. I mean, I'm physically in my home in Chicago with one of two cats on me. In this moment. I am spiritually dying. I feel a bit spiritually dead.

Yeah. I'm really, really exhausted and really depleted and really depressed. And. In some ways, I feel like I haven't been this low for a long time.

And in some ways I'm like. It feels. I don't know. I've been. I've. I'm just very aware of the lack of, like, narrative around it.

Like, I don't have enough cognitive functioning to even come up with a narrative. And I also am, like, feel blessed around that because I'm like. I don't actually feel very caught in any stories right now. I just. Feel like.

Like, that that's crazy making. So I'm glad about that. And I'm like, underneath the stories is just. Or like, underneath the lack of stories, it's just this feeling of.

Like, suffering. Like, I just feel. Yeah. Like. So sad.

Maru: 00:07:22

Yeah.

Amalia: 00:07:22

So lost and empty and tired and, like. Yeah. I don't know. That's all. I probably wouldn't necessarily go into that much detail about that, but it feels like it positions me.

In an interesting relationship to our topic of conversation. And. Yeah, there is something about this realm I'm in that feels a lot closer to death than my general. Not general. There's no general. But than. Than.

Sometimes.

Maru: 00:08:08

Yeah. The image was coming to me of, like, receding water. Like, when there's, like, a tsunami coming, you know, on the water. Receipts from the coast.

Or even just, like, general.

Amalia: 00:08:26

Yeah.

Maru: 00:08:27

Water movement.

Amalia: 00:08:30

Yeah, that hits.

Maru: 00:08:32

It's a. You know, it's an interesting position to be in, to feel that sort of. I'm not holding anything necessarily. And also, like, what do I do with.

With my hands? Like, where. Where am I putting. Where am I putting all this focus, like, you know. Yeah, it's a. I've been thinking just a lot about.

Just how, you know, since we had our short conversation last week, found Thursday, like. How close I feel like I've gotten to a.

A better, like, witnessing of my own dying and, like, the seasonal dying around me that happens every year that, like, because I am from the Caribbean, like, I never really got to see the way that winter can really make a place. Go dormant and go to that, like, stillness and quiet that I feel only winter really can, like. Can offer.

And how hard of a training that is to just be.

To feel it so physically and to, like, sense it in the environment and then see that reflected within my own self whenever I am at those, like, death spots where, like. Letting go has to happen. You know?

Amalia: 00:10:28

Yeah.

Maru: 00:10:32

Breath. I've been thinking a lot about breath. I've been wanting to, like, do more breathing practices, and it's so difficult for me to.

I don't know, to just breathe and be in my body sometimes that it can be very, like, challenging. To hold that. That liminal space of, like. Emptiness. That can come before sort of a wave of, you know.

Something else life, you know, whatever the Ouroboros might be.

Amalia: 00:11:25

One of my teachers. Said every breath is a death.

Maru: 00:11:33

Every breath is a death.

Amalia: 00:11:34

Yeah. I do think it's very meditative to think about the exhales and, like, very. Yeah. Simplifying, you know, to just come into, like.

The birth and death cycle.

Maru: 00:11:56

Yeah.

Amalia: 00:11:57

Just in one breath.

Maru: 00:12:01

Yeah. I fear sometimes, like. That my. Comfort. More so recent for. It'S like, with death and with the death process, um, that is just sort of.

I don't know, that it might feel like it's too. Poetic. Like, I have this fascination with, you know, yearning. Um. And. I feel like when I. When death is, like, the closest to me, I feel a lack of.

That, Like a lack of desire, a lack of wanting to reach out, a lack of, like. It's just. It feels like an enclosing and it's very necessary. But it can also feel, like, so calcified. Within me.

And it can feel hard to, like, share in it with other people. And, yeah, bringing people in can be. It's like, how do you. How do you bring people there with you? You know what I mean?

How do you do so in a way that is, like. Taking everyone into consideration and our. All of our capacities for it into consideration.

Amalia: 00:13:35

Are you sort of getting at. Like, the closer you feel to death. The more. Edgy it feels to, like, actually share where you're at with other people?

Maru: 00:13:49

I think so, yeah. Yeah. Because it's like. You know, like sometimes I'm like, how do I communicate that I feel like dying? That I feel like I just want to.

Lie horizontally.

Amalia: 00:14:10

Yeah.

Maru: 00:14:13

And for it not to be like, like, you know, worrisome, for it not to cause concern and for it not to cause like more like distress for another person. Like, I feel myself being very preoccupied about that in the moments that I totally. In those spaces.

Amalia: 00:14:31

Yeah. I have so many feelings about this and I'm like, this is so edgy. I'm like, who knows whether anyone's going to listen to this because that's fine.

But I. I'm so. I feel so frustrated about that. I feel frustrated from a personal standpoint. I feel frustrated from like a.

The personal standpoint is like, I've spent a lot of my life feeling suicidal and. It sucks that there's this feeling of like, in those moments I can't actually talk to anyone because it's gonna freak everyone out.

And it's not even comforting to talk to people when you have to spend the time and comforting them because they're freaking out about you. Which isn't to say it's not reasonable. Like, I'm not even making like they should or shouldn't. I'm just like, it sucks. It's a shitty situation.

And then I have like a whole realm of like being a therapist and the way that like the mental health industrial fucking.

Monstrous whatever with suicidality, which is a whole other thing, and people being locked up against their will, like they're just like whole other entanglement, my own entanglement with that from. From multiple angles and. And then there's just like, yeah, this like sadness I feel in general.

We were talking about this at the other day, but that like, it doesn't serve anyone that people are so. That death is like such an alienated topic in many cultures, including whatever. The one that we live in the U.S. yeah. Dominant culture. Like.

I think it's frustrating and I think there's elements of. You're concerned about your friend that are extremely normal and understandable. And there's also elements of.

People don't want to talk about death in any way. A lot of the time that doesn't feel as strange.

The concern for a friend doesn't feel separated at all from a larger alienation from the topic of death and dying, which is an extremely inevitable and normal part of life. And I can feel in my body the possibility around other ways of relating to death.

And I'M just like, what would that be like to be like, I feel close to death today, I feel like dying today, like in that world. What would that be like? Um, yeah, yeah.

Maru: 00:17:13

I mean, I think we live within like in a Western society who was afraid of anything that even approaches death, including old age, you know, and. Yeah, yeah, like, it's annoying. It's. Yeah.

Like gray hairs are considered, you know, unattractive or like old age is considered frail and like weak or whatever. And it's like it, yeah, it is frustrating. It is annoying because we are closing ourselves off of.

So much knowledge that can come to us in those moments where we are. In the void of like, why, you know, like, absolutely, you know, it's. It makes sense that it is worrisome.

And at the same time it would be so much more helpful if we came to each other with like, you know, me too, in these different ways, rather than like making it something to like push away from society and maintain, like, you know, hidden in hospitals, hidden in jails, hidden wherever it is that you're hiding. Bunk house. Yeah. I mean it's, it's a, it's. It's very isolating.

To feel responsibility over people's own discomfort with even the like, the reality of where we are all going. Like we're getting off this ride the same exact way, all of us. You know what I mean? Like, there's. I don't see another door. It's just the one door.

And.

Amalia: 00:19:23

Yeah. And I think it's interesting to think about, like. I don't know, I just, I think it's such a loss, I think. Going in so many directions.

I shared this with you. Last week.

Maru: 00:19:48

But.

Amalia: 00:19:52

About a. Yeah. A year ago, almost exactly a year ago, I was going through a lot of shit. My, my. My family and I was bringing up a lot.

My sister was like, really had a near death experience and it brought up a lot of stuff around my mom dying and when I was young and when we were all young and it was like same brain related stuff, there was just enough similar material to really trigger some time travel. And. I was the most suicidal that I'd been for a while.

And it was also during the high holidays and during a time that spiritually for me and for so many different religions is kind of understood to be this time of the thinning of the veil. And it was this time where I was like, this suicidality feels different. And it was the first time that I was like, I wonder if this is something.

There's a story attached to suicidality for me that's like, I feel so bad, or I feel so anxious, or I feel so depressed, or I feel so alone or, like, something that I want to die.

And there's, like, this arc there that does feel extremely informed by the environment and culture I've been brought up in that we're talking about where death is the ultimate bad and awful. And therefore, if I want to die, it must mean. I don't know.

It's just, like, there's just so many layers to it that I'm like, I don't think that those layers are intrinsic to wanting to die or to death. Like, I don't think that, you know.

But anyway, I think, like, yeah, I just really, like, had this, like, go around with it last year where I was like, this feels like I'm this. It just has this different kind of quality to it. And so I made a reading with. I don't know what to call her, but, like, a teacher and a seer.

And someone that's, like, very skilled at contacting unseen. Realm. And. I talked to her about it, and I was like, I have this feeling that feels.

I don't know why, but I just, like, I feel like I'm trying to get closer to my ancestors or something. Like, I feel like I'm trying to go somewhere.

And the place that I'm trying to go, it's making me, like, this arc feels like the words I have for it are, I feel suicidal. Like, I can feel that, but it, like, feels like a different groove in my system. Like, it feels like I'm going down some.

Like, it just feels like I'm trying to contact, like, I don't know. I was like, are they trying to contact me? Am I trying to contact them? Like, where am I going here?

Like, the timing of the year, the thinning of the veil, like, it all just feels very. It just, like, felt like enough stuff to, like, cue me.

And she basically was like, yeah, you're going down this groove where, like, one of the exits is to die by suicide. But I don't think that's what you're trying to do right now.

I think you're trying to go past that and, like, down deeper and trying to work with the dead a particular way. Like, you're trying to contact them. You're trying to work with them. And. Yeah, I think I like. The reason that it feels like.

I mean, obviously it's relevant to this conversation, but I think the thing that feels most interesting to me in this moment isn't what I am or am not meant to do or going to do. In terms of the death work piece, I think I already do a lot of death work in various ways, but. Or like ancestral work.

But I think it's just interesting to me that it's like. I think I'm very compelled by this. This sense of like, we go places, you know, and we have words for them and words create realities.

And so I'm curious how many people. Like, I. Yeah, I just think there's like a missed opportunity in this. Like high key avoidance and fear of like how close we can get to death.

Because I think there's a lot of different ways to get close to death. Like, I think psychedelic experiences, psychosis, you know. Like. Yeah, depression and suicidality. But like so many different ways.

Like, there are so many ways, like, and orgasm. Like, I think there's like, you know, kink. Like, I think there's a lot of different ways that we're actually kind of like very seduced.

And I'm not trying to say this as though, like we're the first people to ever talk about this in any way, but I just think that it's like. Yeah, I think. Yeah, there's so much. There's so much.

Maru: 00:24:22

Yeah. Like, what could be more seducing that. That you absolutely will not know until you actually die.

Amalia: 00:24:29

Yeah, totally.

Maru: 00:24:30

Yeah. Like, it's like we. Some of us are closer to it. Some of us feel like it's more present with us.

Some of us feel like it's far away into the future and like you're not even thinking about it. But. I feel like. Like this society is also a death cult. It's just a different way of doing so. You know what I mean?

Like, in so many ways, at least in my growing up, you know, growing up Christian, Catholic, whatever you may call it. Like, the idea is to live your life so that when you die then you get to go to heaven. You know what I mean? Like, that is. That is.

A death cult in the sense that. Rather than death encouraging you to like.

Live your life as it is, with it present, you are putting it off and sort of fighting against the possibility of like. You know, like, fine, I'll suffer through life. If that means that then when I die, I can go to heaven, which is a waste of life and death.

Because, you know, how will you. How, like, it's not. You can't go on the computer and just be like, oh, yeah, they have points. They're going to heaven. You know what I mean? And like.

I think that. I think that the. The, like.

The loss is that we grasp so desperately to everything we grasp so desperately to this idea of, like, health and this idea of, like, happiness and this idea, like, all of these ideas that we have about how things might be, rather than. Letting those ideas die, like, letting that ego die and the ego will die over and over again. And it's just a question of, like, is that. Is.

Is that being, you know, that ego that I, or whatever it might be, you know, at the center of you, is that, like, desperately scared of obliteration to the point of completely denying it, or is it willing to consider the fact that it will die and be reborn again through life and into death? And, like, I don't know. It seems kinder to me to, like. To give ourselves the opportunity.

To get into those depths, you know, and, like, as safely as possible and as kindly and softly as possible so that we can, like, take a look at what is lying down there and, like, actually welcome it. Because, yeah, madness, you know, going insane. Is. I think it's something that we all. Experience to some level or another.

Some of us might just road rage. You know what I mean?

Amalia: 00:27:48

Like, totally.

Maru: 00:27:49

Totally. That is the way that they are tapping into it. And some of us. My just, like.

I'm thinking of, like, Victorian ladies just sort of vanishing, you know, and just sort of laying and, like. Yeah.

Amalia: 00:28:21

Yeah. I think that you get to this point that's like. Like part of my.

I feel like I'm in my head, likely because I'm, like, anxious about this conversation, honestly. I'm like, the idea of people listening. Getting in my head. So I'm naming that. But as I'm in my head, one of the things that I'm like.

That's, like, coming up as this sort of. I don't know, protector or something is. It'S like, well, this is the point. Like, you. You chose to come here, I believe, incarnate.

Like, we know what death is. We know what void is. We came here to have this one experience in this moment in time. Which is small moments in time, maybe.

And it's like, yeah, so during this, Maya, during this movie, I'm gonna spend a bunch of time being afraid of death. Because that's, like, part of the movie, so that's fine. And then I'm gonna die.

I'm gonna go back to the thing, and then I'm gonna, like, whatever, maybe choose some other life and also spend that life being afraid of death, maybe. I don't know. But anyway, the kind of lawyer in my head is A little like. So what? So you come here, so you be afraid. So what's wrong with that?

And I think.

First of all, nothing's wrong with it, but I think the thing that you just said is the thing that feels like it grounds that voice, which is like, it changes your whole life to change your relationship to death. Yes. This is a movie and we have, I mean, whatever, in theory, we have agency in some ways, right. We have consciousness.

The possibility to get closer to consciousness in this movie, which I think makes it a little more fun. And.

Yeah, I think finding ways to let go of the strangle on life and the fear of death, which will change so much, you know, allows energy to move, I think, so much more organically when you're not trying to like, straight. Like, because to be afraid of like the big death is to be afraid of all these small deaths too. And that just sucks.

Like, it sucks to go through life like that.

Maru: 00:30:36

Absolutely. Because if you're holding on so for dear life, right, like, if you're holding on to bear. I was listening to the audiobook that I mentioned last week.

The Agony of Eros. For anyone who might be listening or not.

Like, when you're just holding on to life for the sake of life, to bear life is the way that they talk about it in the book. It's like holding on.

It's like, yeah, it's like holding on to people just to be loyal to people without taking into consideration anything else within that. You know what I mean? Like, in my marriage, when I was married, like, I was just holding on to the marriage. I wasn't holding on to this person.

I wasn't holding on to my feelings for them. Like, at there came a point where it was simply the holding on that mattered. And like, that's not enough to be alive.

That's not enough to keep something going. That's like, it's. It's like counter to nature, you know what I mean?

Like, and even if, when, when you were talking, I was thinking about like all the different types of authority and like, how it literally is about just, you know, for generators, it's about following our next response, our next yes for manifestors is about the next, like, impulse to initiate. And it's just all about forward movement. And that cannot possibly happen if you are so preoccupied about what this might mean.

In who I am, how I am, how I'm perceived. Like that movement forward cannot happen. Life cannot happen.

If you're so afraid of dying and like, you're so afraid of letting whatever it is that you're letting go. It's like microdosing death. Any changes that we make, really. And it's like, waste of practice.

Amalia: 00:32:45

Yeah.

That makes me think about microdosing mushrooms, and it makes me wonder why, like, the reason that it helps us so much is because, like, to microdose them. Like, mushrooms are little death machines. They feed on death. And so I.

Like, it makes me think about, like, if the medicinal value they offer us is, like, a microdose of, like, being able to loosen our grip a little bit on our fear of death.

Maru: 00:33:10

I experience mushrooms as, like, I never feel more giggly and happy to be alive than when I'm on mushrooms. And, like, it's such a beautiful energy to be within because. Yeah. Now that you say it like that, like. It'S. It's.

It holds in itself, like, the preciousness of death. Just, like, how special life is and how, like, unique it is and how.

Amalia: 00:33:44

Important. And how funny.

Maru: 00:33:47

And how funny. Yeah. And, like, I don't know, man. I've never. I've only ever gotten high on shrooms when I'm at home with my cat. And, like, my.

My reaction is always just, like, looking at her giggling and being like, oh, my God, I love you so much. Like, I don't know what to do with all of this. And it really feels so good.

Amalia: 00:34:12

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if you want to talk more about the book. It sounded really interesting when you were describing it the other day.

Maru: 00:34:24

Ah, the agony of Eros. It's just a lot about. Desire, which I think has so much to do with death, because I think that it contrasts desire and death contrast each other.

And, like. I think that death highlights desire in a way that is, like. So interesting to me. And just, like. I don't know when I want to eat, like, a carrot cake.

You know what I mean? Like, I feel turned on and I feel like, whew, carrot cake. And then it will come to an end.

Like, part of enjoying the cake is knowing that it's not an eternal pot, like, cake. That's so.

Amalia: 00:35:16

Yeah.

Maru: 00:35:17

As much as I would like it to be. But then maybe I would start hating the cake. And I don't want to hate the cake.

Amalia: 00:35:23

Like, if it's endless, then you wouldn't desire it in the same way.

Maru: 00:35:26

Exactly. And, like. I feel the same way. And, of course, like, feeling more and more like that about life, too. Of just, like. You know.

This mortal coil is coming to an end, and, like, I get to witness other people in their mortal coils. And, like, I Get to be gracious or not, I get to just see how that lands with me. And like, which. Which way feels better? And like.

Yeah, like, denying, denying the ever presence of death is just such. It's so numbing. It can be quite limiting.

Amalia: 00:36:13

I'm thinking, like. It'S like knowing that death. Will come. Is what makes life sustainable. And, and like, and specifically like desire in this way.

Like, I'm just thinking about the carrot cake and I'm like, it wouldn't be sustainable. Like, you wouldn't be able to sustain eating the, you know, you wouldn't. Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

Maru: 00:36:40

Yeah. You know, all of these technologies. I love sci fi. That's like one of my favorite things to read or like watch shows.

And there is this show called Altered Carbon. And the premise is that you can like download your consciousness into this disk and basically everyone gets to live forever.

But obviously some of us are trillionaires and some of us are not. So like, what happens then when our bodies become even more so a commodity and where you can switch bodies because your consciousness isn't the same.

Cd, right? And like. One of the things that this show sort of gets into is I, I and I. This is my personal cosmology. I think that like.

What makes life special is death. And if we were to have no death, then there's no humanity. Like if like humans.

Nature is meant to like be born, live, die, like it's a, you know, it's circle and then we go back into the soup of souls and then we are decanted again. Maybe we'll see. But like, yeah, this, this big obsession of people with living forever.

And like, I see this in a different way, like in my family and like with how my father has gone through like sickness and like how he's been literally like so close to dying so many times over the last years. And like, there's been points for me that I'm just like, just, just go, you know, just go. As painful as it might be, as horrifying as that reality.

You know, on the other side of it could feel like there is a value to. To going through that loss and to grieving that like, I feel I've grieved my father. A million times over the last seven years and he's still alive.

So like, I get to keep grieving. And like, I think what people are. So one of the reasons why people are afraid of death is grief. And we just want to sanitize everything.

We want to sanitize being a human. We want to make being a human this like clean cut, clear situation. And like, it is fucking not.

And it, you know, and that we are, we only are putting ourselves further and further away from that humanity that makes us ourselves. If we are trying to step away from the fact of life that is death and that like, grieving. Brings with it. Yeah.

Amalia: 00:39:48

Yeah. I mean, something I've been thinking about a lot since you mentioned it last week too is like, I think there's death and then there's also pain. And.

I don't know if those are even related. But you were talking about your moon, Mars and your proximity to destruction and destructiveness and.

Yeah, I wonder if that feels alive for you to riff on it all. It really stuck with me the way you were talking about it.

Maru: 00:40:30

I'm not sure what I was saying last week, but the way I can relate to it today is the following.

I have bite marks today on my wrists because yesterday I was masturbating and I just like came and I bit my wrist and I woke up this morning and there's marks on, on me and I'm like, that's fun. And also, you know, there's like embarrassment about it and there's like wanting to share it with like my friend.

Earlier this morning and then just like telling myself like, people don't even know this. Right? And like. Like death. We want to also avoid pain unless it's in very specific ways and unless we have a say about it.

Which is why many people are so into kink and why so many people will get piercings or will get tattoos or will put themselves through like, strenuous climbing, fucking, you know, whatever it might be.

Amalia: 00:41:40

Like we choose pain all the time for specific time.

Maru: 00:41:44

So so many different kinds of pain.

Amalia: 00:41:46

Yeah.

Maru: 00:41:49

And like. Again, like, are we gonna be embarrassed about it and are we gonna like, give ourselves. More shame and more like self inflicted.

Crap, like, you know, or are we just going to try and relax into it and like, try and find what's funny about, you know.

Being overwhelmed by emotions and then fighting demons to text my tattoo artist and be like, hi, yeah, I'm going to take you up on the $150 off for another tattoo this year because I haven't had enough time on the chair, you know, like, it's just.

Amalia: 00:42:38

Yeah, yeah, I think you're. I haven't thought about it quite that way.

But it feels so obvious when you say it that it's like, is it about a fear of pain or is it actually about a fear of, like, pain out of our Control. And maybe it's not about even pain at all. It's actually just the feeling of being out of control, period. That is so terrifying.

Maru: 00:43:07

Yeah, yeah. Putting yourself in someone else's hands, whether that is through. Getting a haircut, getting a tattoo, whatever it might be. Like.

One of the things that this agony of Eros talks about is how the other is. Like. It's also like death. We can't fully be the other. We can't fully step into the other. We can try and approach the other.

We can try and approach death as much as possible. And I'm thinking of, like, there's this mathematical.

I don't know if I talked to you about this, but, like, the way I'm thinking about it is, like, there's a mathematical thing that you can plug into a system, and then basically. The line can keep approaching X or Y, but it just will never touch it. And, like, it just gets closer and closer and closer.

And the more that you zoom into it, like, you know, it's still just approaching and it's still just approaching, and it will never actually touch. Yeah. And I feel like from here, from where we're at right now, like, incarnate, that's how we can perceive death. That's how we can see it.

And also in relating to one another, that death that happens in the other, because it's not us, because the ego, the I, has to stay over here. And also we have to be able to, like, drop it, to take other. Like, to take others in.

And the unknowability of the other is also a kind of death and, like, something that we need to. To deal with in our relating to one another. Yeah. Like, it's out of our control when we love someone. You know what I mean? Like, we just love them.

And we can want things for them or from them, but ultimately we don't get to negotiate. Their own capacity and our own needs that might not be met. Yeah.

Amalia: 00:45:36

I'm just sort of dreaming about, like, what it would be like to. Grow up and to live in a place that, like, was a lot. Like, is it realistic?

Like, I've read about other cultures, but I have never experienced what it would be like. Like, I'm kind of, like, in this disbelief of, like, does it happen?

Does it happen for us to just be around a sense of death just being woven into our understanding of the life cycle and of our culture? I'm so curious what that would be like. I'm also, like, curious.

Coming back to suicidality, I'm like, does suicidality exist there, like, or is it about the tabooness? Like, is it about it being this like, last ditch option that has this very specific. You know what I mean?

Like, does the suicidality exist outside of a context where death is like this like, bad, shamed, taboo thing?

Maru: 00:46:39

Yeah. I mean, is suicidality always escapist? Like, are you trying to run away from something?

Amalia: 00:46:47

Yeah, that's. I think. No, I think you're right.

Maru: 00:47:01

I think that like. There'S so much fear too, over people taking matters into their own hands in that way. Because it's like, what do you mean? You just.

Ran head first into it, you know, like, it's very.

Amalia: 00:47:24

It's threatening.

Maru: 00:47:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, if you don't, if you don't fear death. What is there to fear? You know, like, if you are willing to just throw yourself into its arms.

Amalia: 00:47:51

Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm so enticed by this sort of. Dream of like, what would my relationship to fear be like then also, you know. Because I do also feel pretty dominated by fear a lot of the time.

Maru: 00:48:07

Hmm.

Amalia: 00:48:11

And like, how much of my relationship to fear has to do with my relationship to death?

Maru: 00:48:20

Do you feel or have you felt fear be productive for you.

Amalia: 00:48:28

Asking a fear motivated person or both of your motivated people?

Maru: 00:48:31

Yeah.

Amalia: 00:48:40

I mean, I think like the intellectual answer is like, yeah, I don't feel connected to that in this moment. Like, I like, understand that. I like, yeah, fear keeps us alive. But.

I think this is something I think a lot about actually is like, what is the difference between fear as a trauma response and fear as like an emotion? Like, I am like, you know, because there's like.

I'm like, are trauma responses and like the emotional wave of like all of the infinite emotions different? I think so. But fear is the main emotion driving the trauma response.

And so I'm like, what is the difference between fear as an emotion and fear as a trauma response? And I think fear as a trauma response is a survival related thing. Like, fear as a trauma response is the thing that keeps us alive. So.

Yeah, I guess I'm like, I think those trauma responses, like my fear as trauma responses has been productive in that way. And I think, of course, when the trauma response lasts longer than the trauma does, then it's no longer productive, you know, or whatever. It's.

It's protecting something, but it's no longer saving my life because my life no longer needs saving. I don't know. What do you think? Fear?

Maru: 00:50:20

You know. I feel like I've been afraid My. My whole life. I'm just like, you know, and there's so many, so many, so many, so many kinds of fear.

Amalia: 00:50:35

That I have felt.

Maru: 00:50:36

And, like, I have feared for my.

Amalia: 00:50:37

Life before, for sure.

Maru: 00:50:40

And, like, there's a lot of stories. That are tied. Specifically to my father that have to do a lot with, like, fearing for my life and putting myself in the hands of another.

I think that fear has also made space for me to trust myself and for me to trust the universe at large. Fear. It's like a romantic part of me that is, like.

Amalia: 00:51:15

Yeah.

Maru: 00:51:16

You know, anytime that I'm afraid, I know that, like, whatever I'm afraid about is, like, worth it. Is that true? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think that you can also lessen fear by. And this is very, like, one coded. But, like, by. By.

By learning, by talking to people, by reading books, by, like, listening podcasts, by, like, by understanding.

Yeah, by, like, getting into astrology, getting into human design, getting into all of these systems that might help you give this fucking hot mess of existence some sort of sense, you know, some. Some. Some, like, peek into. Peek into meaning.

Amalia: 00:52:08

I don't know.

Maru: 00:52:10

It's a. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, fear clarifies. You know what I mean? Like, fear helps me sometimes, like, navigate hikes that I go on and, like. You know.

Yeah.

Amalia: 00:52:38

Yeah. Like, when intuition shows up as fear.

Maru: 00:52:45

Yeah, like, it's the fear. Keeping, like. To me, fear for a long time was keeping me from. From connection, from people. Like, I found.

I found my one person and I married that person, and everyone else was just. Extra. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, fear became so real to me when I started to realize that I was unhappy and that I felt isolated and that I felt.

You know, disempowered, like, down to the bone, just not able to hold myself, much less hold another. And, like, still putting myself in the position where I'm, like, forcing to. Like, I'm being forced to. And like, that.

That fear that I felt before making the decision. Of separating from my ex. It's so funny because, like, I remember telling my.

I was into roller skating back then, and I remember getting myself these very expensive yellow roller skates. And there was. I. You know, it just was kind of in the back of my head that I would get those skates when I left him.

ng the skates. This was like,: 2020

And, like, the. It Was, like, postponed by, like, six months or whatever. The arrival of these fucking skates.

And I just remember the moment, the day that I got them was the date that I had this, like, one conversation with my ex that completely made the house of cards fall.

Amalia: 00:54:43

Mm.

Maru: 00:54:43

And literally 12 hours later, like, the next day, I am putting my shit in a. In, like, I went to Target, got this luggage, and just left. Know what I mean? Like, and got your skates. And got my skates.

And, like, I busted my ass up my shoulder. And now I'm working on it five years later, I'm, like, literally with a physical therapist.

Amalia: 00:55:06

Wow.

Maru: 00:55:07

Reading my shoulder. And, like, I'm still letting go, and I'm still. Like, layers of me are still dying from back then. You know what I mean?

Like, layers of me that I've carried until this moment that literally, physically kept me from, like, raising my hand and, like, opening myself up. And. I was actually thinking about how. Crabs and their molting shells and how they get to a point in their growth multiple times through life where.

Where, like, their shells are too small and they need to shed them and they need to, like, find another one or grow another one or whatever their biology might require. And, like. Doesn'T mean anything about the shell that held them until that moment.

It doesn't mean anything about themselves for find another shell to live in or.

Amalia: 00:56:08

Like, grow another one.

Maru: 00:56:10

It just. It just means that it's time and that the longer that I held that I have, like, whenever I'm holding on to those.

Onion layers that I don't want to shed off, that I don't want to peel back.

Amalia: 00:56:25

Cancer crab shells.

Maru: 00:56:27

Yes. Onions and crabs have been in my mind a lot, but, yeah, it's like, the longer I've held on, the harder I've made it for myself and for other people.

And I feel like that has. That's across the board. And. Yeah. Perhaps.

Amalia: 00:56:59

Do you feel like this, like, sweet cross section of, like, they get bigger, they need new shells, but they also have claws that like, to hold on.

Maru: 00:57:12

Yeah. Before we got on, I was thinking about, like, I should tell people that I am a water. Like, you know, like, who is talking to you, Right?

Like, this is a Leo rising with a cancer sun in the 12th House in a Merc. Mercury in the 12th House in Cancer as well. And then I was just thinking about my water placements. Scorpio in my fourth house.

With Pluto as resident, and then my Saturn right at the beginning of Pisces. And I think about the water signs a lot, and I Think about how cancer initiates this emotional realm.

Scorpio deepens into it, and Pisces is like, yeah, I love you all, and we are all love, and then we die, you know? And, like. I admire Pisces placements so much, and I love them, and I'm obsessed. And.

Like, I. I can sense how water, like Cancer and Scorpio want to hold on. So closely, and they want to keep safe and they want to keep close.

And Pisces is just sort of, you know, swimming and being one with the current and just being the current and, like.

Amalia: 00:58:40

Yeah, nothing to hold onto because you're everything, right?

Maru: 00:58:43

And you're a fish. You might be, like, taken out of the water and shown the eclipse and then turn, like, back into the water you go. You know what I mean?

Like, you're just like, whoa. I'm just swimming, man. I don't know.

Amalia: 00:59:02

Just swimming, man.

Maru: 00:59:05

You know.

Amalia: 00:59:11

I think this might be this particular conversation's death. What do you think?

Maru: 00:59:17

Yeah.

Amalia: 00:59:19

Any last thoughts?

Maru: 00:59:24

Just keep on living, kid.

Amalia: 00:59:27

Keep on swimming. Yeah, you do worry.

Maru: 00:59:31

Yeah. Love you. Love you, too.

Amalia: 00:59:43

Sam.